Seeing as I recently wrote a piece titled " The De-evolution of the 3D Fighting Genre ", I was pleasantly surprised to learn that Dead or Alive 5, (developed by Team Ninja and published by Tecmo Koei) was announced at TGS 2011 for the PS3 and XBOX 360 (currently pinned down for a 2012 release). For those of you who read the aforementioned piece, I expressed a few worries in relation to the state of the 3-D fighting genre and even briefly spoke about the Dead or Alive series. The exact quote from the piece is as follows:
"And as for the Dead or Alive series ? I reserve my Judgement till I hear an announcement with regards to the rumored 5th installment. But I personally went far away from the Dead or alive series due to the lack of distinctive move sets, and over reliance on a counter system (that got boring quickly). The most accurate description of the Dead or Alive series is a " highly advanced poke-fest ". I hope the fighting system gets a complete overhaul when and if the 5th installment finally gets released on consoles ".
That might sound a bit harsh, but I can confidently back up that statement considering I'm a huge 3-D fighting game fan and have followed and played just about every 3-D fighting game there is on home consoles and in the arcades. At one point, I was a huge DOA fan too . . .
Fans of the DOA series will agree that ever since the release of DOA2 and DOA2: Hardcore on the PS2 in 2000, this is the first time a DOA game will grace a home console apart from the XBOX and XBOX 360 (this excludes handheld consoles ofcourse). Part of this is down to Tomonobu Itagaki's departure from team Ninja, and the fact that Yosuke Hayashi is not a secret undercover agent working for Microsoft. Tomonobu Itagaki consistently gave the PS2 and PS3 the cold shoulder, and it seems Hayashi doesn't share the same view.
After watching the TGS 2011 trailer, I came away with mixed feelings. I'll divide these opinions under good and bad headings. Although it is unfair to judge the whole game based on this short pre-alpha trailer, you can at least have a sense of direction and extrapolate where the game is headed.
Here's the trailer:
Very impressive indeed, but here are my thoughts:
The Good
1) The attention to character detail is rather impressive. With such visuals, DOA5 will comfortably compete with and even surpass Tekken Tag Tournament 2, Soul Calibur 5 and Virtua Fighter 5: Final Showdown graphically. Please take into account this is the pre-alpha version. Just imagine how the finished product will look . . . Exactly. With such visuals, DOA5 is poised to be a graphically monstrous game.
2) I really like how Team Ninja have made modifications to Hayate's default appearance. Seeing as he is my favourite character from the series, I can safely say Hayate looks even " sicker " and battle ready than ever before. I look forward to seeing the modifications that have been made to the other characters (if any).
3) From the looks of things, Team Ninja are placing emphasis on destructible environments and highly interactive environments with movable and deform-able environmental objects. This is something which if done well, could set DOA5 apart from the competition. If the environment Interaction was completely random in nature (not scripted physics), it would certainly make fights unpredictable. And yes, that particular arena in the trailer looked beautiful.
4) I have always loved the side-stepping/evasion in the Virtua Fighter series. Although it seems as though you can sidestep in DOA5, no 3-D game (so far) has successfully implemented evasion and side stepping as effectively as the Virtua Fighter series. It will be extremely interesting to see how Team Ninja can make side stepping/side walking/evasion effective in DOA5.
5) The arena demonstrated in the pre-alpha trailer seemed rather huge. I really like this. Huge arena's are always welcome and can always provide some breathing space for less experienced players. Im not saying all arena's should be of that size, but huge arena's are always welcome.
The Bad
1) One thing I noticed in the trailer was the presence of something that put me off the DOA series: lack of distinctive move sets and how things eventually boil down to a counter and advanced poking and button mashing fest. It was nice seeing the Izuna drop, but Team Ninja need to realize the fact that players need to be able to define their characters past moves that look lackluster. Put players in control of the moves, and truly amazing fights will surface. Aside from the Izuna drop, all I saw was two characters hitting each other in a rather boring manner. The moves didn't seem definite and recognizable. If DOA5 is serious about competing in the 3-D fighting game arena, Team Ninja need to completely overhaul every single characters move sets. Make them meaningful! This will add an incredible amount of depth to a game that has the potential to rival Tekken and Virtua Fighter. Boring moves and mechanics lead to boring fights.
I am certainly keen on DOA5, but I seriously hope Team Ninja consider the problems the DOA series have always had and make the necessary changes to ensure DOA5 is a meaningful, deep and interesting 3-D fighting game. It has the potential to be Grade A material, and I sincerely hope we don't see a 'DeJaVu' with DOA5.
With all that's been said, I wish Team Ninja the best of Luck!
What are your thoughts ?
Many thanks
Shadow Master
DOA does not have problems. Neither does Tekken or Soul Calibur. The moves are perfectly fine, the counter system is perfectly fine. The reason we have all these fighting games is so people can pick what works for them. There's nothing I hate more than someone saying "so-and-so needs to be more like this-and-that." We might as well have only one fighting game then if there's a perfect formula!
ReplyDeleteAnyway here's a couple more things I noticed in the trailer:
- The dates on the billboads indicate Team Ninja is targeting a summer 2012 release
- Both characters are very sweaty (can't way to see some sweaty boobs!)
Thanks for your contribution Kyuugou, in response to your comment:
ReplyDelete1) " DOA does not have problems. Neither does Tekken or Soul Calibur " . . I think that is where your argument starts to crumble. DOA series does have serious problems, most 3-D fighting game fans will agree to this. The Tekken Series have improved and refined their fighting mechanics, so has the Virtua Fighter series, but the same cannot be said for the DOA series. Each fighting game has it's pluses and Minuses, it's just a matter of the pluses outweighing the minuses. In the case of the DOA series. The Minuses outweigh the pluses.
2) " The moves are perfectly fine, the counter system is perfectly fine " . . Believe it or not, I used to share that point of view, until I decided to spread my wings, then I saw just how shallow the gameplay could be.
3) " The reason we have all these fighting games is so people can pick what works for them. There's nothing I hate more than someone saying "so-and-so needs to be more like this-and-that " . . . Very good point, variety is the spice of life (as I have pointed out in a previous opinion piece), and the 3-D fighting game genre needs a greater variety of fighting franchises to evolve. That however does not take away the fact that DOA in comparison to other 3-D fighting game franchises leaves the professional players wanting more.
4) " We might as well have only one fighting game then if there's a perfect formula!" . . Unfortunately I do feel that statement was made as a result of a complete misunderstanding of the point of the article :)
Many thanks for your contribution
Shadow Master
Good article!
ReplyDeleteI really agree with your comment on the gameplay. DOA's stuck in time, and cursed a bit by Itagaki's arrogant bluster that he already achieved all he could in the fighting game field.
DOA fans may disagree, but the simple fact is that DOA is behind and needs to grow up and change. The performance of DOAD showed that. Tecmo needs to release a new, refreshed and changed fighter- not a simple graphically enhanced DOA4
Sad to say but I don't totally see Hayashi rebuilding DOA from the ground up, or changing every animation for each individual move- but if he does do that, I'll be impressed.
The DOA fan in stasis deep inside me is wishing to see a hot new DOA in 2012. Something with refreshed gameplay and updated features. Not holding my breath as I play my TTT2, SCV, VF5FS and other awesome fighters, but I'll be keeping my eye on this.
Tekken Tag tournament graphics compare to DOA5 or SC4? no way! Tekken's graphic still uses cheap method.
ReplyDeleteand I believe SC does 3d side stepping well too.
Also DOA fighting mechanic evolves around 'rock paper scissor'. You either fight offensive or fight defensive with the help of the counter system. I still don't get what you mean by lack luster movesets, unless you are comparing it to VF5 complicated moves or SF/Mortal Kombat signature moves (hadouken, scorpion spear).
To your comment above Kyyugo. You said many fighting game fans would know what is wrong with DOA compare to VF & Tekken. I think you must be talking about the combo string. Actually combo string are what breaks fighting games. Why should players be allowed to memorise button combination that can allow a character to deal long combo damages on to you?
DOA has always been a rock,paper scissor type of game not tekken-esue game with long combo. DOA4 tried to be like Tekken with its ridiculous long combo that players can come up with. You search on Youtube and see people saying "I created this long combo, I won't give away how to do them". Its just ridiculous and childish.
But I still don't know what you mean by lackluster move, but anyway good article.
Lol @ the guy who said there is nothing wrong with DOA'S counter system. I won't point out your error but, in the future while you play DOA you'll see the problem.
ReplyDelete@ the guy who said TTT2 graphics are cheap: I don't know if you seen it on screen in motion in true HD or, not but your definitely in the wrong with that comment. DOA combo's never tried to be like tekken combos. Tekken combos do not rely on ground stuns as launchers but, launchers as punishers. In DOA true combo are only combos after a launcher and, they are not nearly as long as tekken combos. Anything before a launcher in stun dealing with stuns can be slow escaped or, countered out of.
LEARN THE DAMN GAME BEFORE COMPARING PEOPLE.
Very very good comments Gentlemen! Im Happy to see everyone coming in with good arguments from different perspectives.
ReplyDeleteWell done.
From my point of view, I dont think Hayashi will have enough time to fix the fighting mechanics of the game before release. He just doesn't have enough time for that.
however, he might just surprise us all and release a totally different game from what we have all imagined ? (doubt it though)
And DOA series needs depth. The fight system and moves don't give it a chance to progress pass the shallow end of the swimming pool.
And to reply to Xeno who said " But I still don't know what you mean by lackluster move, but anyway good article " . . By lackluster moves, I mean moves that look and execute meaninglessly. They lack any sort of impact. Hard to explain, but you have to play alot of 3-D fighting games to know what I mean.
Nice one guys keep it up :)
Many Thanks
Shadow Master
Point by point
ReplyDelete"Good"
1 - Agree, the graphics look very promising.
2 - Stylistically, it's a little different and players are taking notice and becoming excited. Agree again.
3 - Yes, perhaps moreso than character refinements, there is the grander aspect of the stage dynamics. This is an equally important part of how DOA5 is likely to impress and entertain. Indications are that stage changes will not be random, but triggered by players. Giving players control over how danger zones are triggered will give a strong feeling of interaction and engagement with the changes in the stage. Random elements may be included but these must be kept to a benign minimum.
This is one of DOA's big opportunities to stand out, and its the area in which they are already far ahead of other fighting games - the environments are excellent.
4 - Basically agree. DOA and VF are similar, but different games and the differences must be understood and respected. Just so, that very carefully looking at implementing worthy gameplay elements other games do well is important and by specifying Sidestepping, have hit the nail on the head here.
5 - Agree, though variety of types of spaces within an arena is important.
"Bad"
1 - Lost me here. Lack of distinctive movesets? Try going through training mode and this theory will be put to bed very quickly. The movesets and signature moves for each character are highly recognisable, from Hayabusa's flashy Izuna to Lei Fang's backturn bodycheck, Zack's weaving Muay-Thai, Ayane's spinning ranged game, Bass' burly grappling... seriously!
Players of 4 have complained about the leniency of the defensive mechanics allowing players to escape more situations than they'd like, which can be argued to water down the effectiveness of some variations of playstyles, but this isn't a criticism of the movesets.
DOA has some of the most spectacular moves and animations in all fighting games. It attracts fighting players and non players, and non gamers to look twice. I've observed this many times.
What they need is to tighten up the counter window and other ways to escape situations so players can put real pressure on one another. They've already taken some positive steps with their tweaks of DOA4 in the 3DS game DOA Dimensions, so by the only indications we have so far, they are looking at these issues and plan to make DOA a serious contender.
Berzerk,
ReplyDeleteThank you so much for your contribution to this opinion piece. I'm Happy to see you can understand where I'm coming from regarding the 'Good' aspects of the trailer.
I feel I have done a disservice by not actually clarifying what I mean by distinctive move sets. I'll try and explain to the best of my ability.
You said: " DOA has some of the most spectacular moves and animations in all fighting games. It attracts fighting players and non players, and non gamers to look twice. I've observed this many times."
That is quite true. Dead or alive is an attractive game to look at. It is flashy and aesthetically pleasing to casual onlookers who know very little about 3-D fighting games. At first sight, people tend to Marvel at the fluidity of character movements and how clean the game looks. Unfortunately, I feel the fluidity and aesthetics precede the actual gameplay mechanics, hence the game ultimately being shallow.
Trust me, I was a hardcore DOA fan. Played every single one of them, and it wasn't till I entered the worlds of Virtua Fighter and Tekken that I understood what problems DOA had.
It feels as though the player has very little degree of control over the move sets thereby high level players will find it hard breaking up their moves to produce interesting combinations.
When I imagine a Tekken fight, I can identify the techniques of each character (same with Virtua Fighter) . . . The developers have made it a point of duty to create distinct characters with distinct fighting techniques and abilities. All this amounts to unique player Identity.
It seems as though DOA characters have very little distinction and Unique Identity due to most opening offensives looking like an attempt to poke the other player. The fluidity is a very good aspect of DOA . . But Team Ninja need to devise a means whereby the fluidity does not take away the substance from the game.
" What they need is to tighten up the counter window and other ways to escape situations so players can put real pressure on one another. They've already taken some positive steps with their tweaks of DOA4 in the 3DS game DOA Dimensions, so by the only indications we have so far, they are looking at these issues and plan to make DOA a serious contender. "
That statement of yours is what they call the " HA YMAKER ". On point and absolutely true.
Many thanks
Shadow Master
"It feels as though the player has very little degree of control over the move sets thereby high level players will find it hard breaking up their moves to produce interesting combinations. "
ReplyDeleteUhh...It's called free cancel.
As for everything else. I'm laughing to hard to bother arguing with. Just another casual who comes to the same baseless conclusion with no real experience in the game.
" As for everything else. I'm laughing to hard to bother arguing with. Just another casual who comes to the same baseless conclusion with no real experience in the game "
ReplyDeleteYou are probably right to some degree: I don't play DOA anymore to even be considered a high level player. However that does not take away the fact that DOA has problems that need addressing. Casual or not, something needs to be done to prevent it from merely being an eye candy fest :)
Thanks
Shadow Master
I'm not saying doa doesn't have it's problems. I dislike doa4 for many reasons of my own and felt it strayed too far from doa3.1. But when you completely disregard things like a free cancel, and boil things down to the beginning of a match, it just makes ppl not take you seriously. It would be like me saying "lol SF4 is nothing but Ryu's spamming shoryukens and hadukens." I know better than to believe that, but thats the kind of conclusion you are coming up with here.
ReplyDelete" But when you completely disregard things like a free cancel, and boil things down to the beginning of a match, it just makes ppl not take you seriously. "
ReplyDeleteHopefully the free Cancels can Catapult the DOA series to new heights :)
Many thanks
Shadow Master